(no subject)

[kittydesade]

А потом, будто откликаясь на акселерацию, дома потянулись вверх.
Then, as if in response to the increased tempo of life, the houses stretched upwards.
Then, as if/as though in response to the acceleration, homes stretched upwards.


От девяти этажей до шестнадцати, а то и до двадцати четырех.
From nine stories to sixteen or even twenty-four.
From nine stories to sixteen, [and even] to twenty four.

No analysis because these are fairly simple sentences.


Yes, still no word. Hopefully we'll hear something today.

Oof. I have all the thoughts and feelings on last night/Sunday nights Once Upon A Time. ETA: Apparently 3500-4000 words worth of thoughts. Firstly, I don't actually believe Rumple was in love with Belle. I think he definitely could have been, and he was on his way to, but he fell into affection and possessive feelings before he fell in love. Starting from the beginning, he demanded Belle partly because he was lonely, but more because he wanted to yank the king's chain. He gets off on that, he was playing up the tittering idiot act (and I was so, so happy to see it clearly defined as an act rather than how he is) and demanding things tht people would never, ever imagine they'd be expected to give. No one expects their savior to demand human coin, it seems like. And then she went with him, which surprised him a little but he was prepared to roll with it, and yanked her around a little. She didn't respond the way most people do, though, which threw him off. He's spent at least a hundred years or so, possibly more depending on the implications of everything and how solid the writers have their timeline, being the cackling boogeyman. He's spent a hundred years or more being apart from everyone. He's not used to people treating him as, admittedly, someone with authority, but otherwise someone as ordinary as they are. He's not used to people apologizing to him for a small mistake.

Or, as she does half-sideways, bossing him around. Telling him what he should do in his own home. We know why the mirrors are covered but the curtains are covered, why? I have a few speculations on that, partly to do with the times when he's at home being the times when he wants to brood more than see the sun, he doesn't entertain. He spends a lot of time isolated and alone, pulling himself down in on himself.

So we know she spends a couple of months with him, at least. Only a couple of months, because after that she starts the conversation about the child's clothes, and his son. Which is also interesting; there's no sign there that Bae knew his father or his father knew him as an adult, then. Which has got to be a constant source of needling regret for him that clearly still hurts. Also interesting that Rumple mentions both his wife and his child, but Belle only asks about the child. It's as though the wife never enters into her thinking, which would be a mistake. But he makes that deal with her, and he expects never to see her again. In other words, he expects never to have to explain about his wife and son, who Rumplestiltskin was before he became synonymous with the cackling magical imp. She, however, focuses on the part where Rumplestiltskin used to be human, and that right there is why I think their relationship was doomed and why their love isn't as true as the spellbreaking would indicate.

Although I also think OUAT's idea of true love and mine is radically different, if we're throwing Snow and Charming/David and Mary Margaret into it. Ugh.

So. Belle leaves for town, possibly not intending to return, possibly just not intending to return for the moment. Either way, she's not intending to come back anytime immediately, and he doesn't expect her to. He's touched and pleased and feels his connection to humanity returning, but at the same time it threatens his solitude. It brings up the possibility of rejection, as Bae rejected him, as the village scorned him for being one kind of undesireable thing, and now he's another. Plus there's the fact that he's essentially immortal, and she isn't. And by now he's probably seen enough people live and die to know what that means and have an idea of what that would feel like if he did allow her any closer.

Belle leaves, and then Regina/EQ comes upon her and offers the solution, that Belle can turn him human again. And Belle, in possibly the most boneheaded idiotic thing moment of the entire episode (at least on her part, there was a lot of that going around), decides this is what she wants. Which is her big mistake. She wants the human Rumple, and has decided that the spellbound Dark-Cursed Rumple isnt' for her. This would be problem enough even without EQ's influence. She goes back, asks him about his son, and doesn't press when he deflects. She moves it instead to his lack of love, of connection, and he questions her motives. Which... heh. Was also a mistkae, there, was her cue to tell him that she talked with the Queen rather than ... okay. He questions her motives, and she gives him what she thinks is probably the only relevant detail, which is that she changed her mind. And they kiss, and while she is all about the romance of it, his body posture suggests he's not sure what's going on. And then the curse lifts and he feels strange and, of all the goddamned foolish things to say, she says "It's working, kiss me again." Because this isn't about her, or him, or her feelings for him. This is about breaking the curse. Even if she thinks he wants to be a man again, she has never asked him that. She has never offered to try to turn him back. As far as he knows, she left, she came back to see him. To be with him, to listen and spend time with him. And then she kissed him, because, perhaps, she loved him. At least, the only advance warning/clue he had was her comment about how "since then you've loved no one, and no one has loved you."

But she says, "it's working, kiss me again." And it's not about the kiss, or the emotion behind it, it's about what the kiss is doing to him. No wonder he knocks everything over and starts ranting about the Queen. (I find the statement "who knows that" to be interesting, but I don't trust the writers to have made that a deliberate choice implying future things down the line.) And then we see that he covers the mirrors so she can't spy on him, and he freaks out and feels betrayed. And he has been. This young woman he was coming to care for, cares more for him as he was than for him as he is now. She wants to be with the man she thinks he could be again. At least, that's the message she's sending. Either that or she's a spy for the queen, neither of which are good things.

Then he goes down to the dungeon. And they have their little chat about how he's a coward and won't let anyone love him, and she's right, really. He keeps himself sealed away out of bitterness, an overdeveloped sense of tragedy, something. But she's also not taking into account that maybe he needs his dark powers to keep everyone safe, which, considering it was his original motivation for taking them on to begin with, he might still be keeping in mind. And he tells her to get out and as far as I know, what she should have done is she should have said no, fuck you, I'm staying you bastard. Given some sign that she's willing to fight for him, even against his tantrums to stay with him and be with him and get to know him and love him for who he is. But no. She leaves, and opens the way for the Queen to be an evil, scheming bitch.

Enter Evil Queen, swooping in! Like a great swoopy Snape, only without the intelligence. And they snark at each other a bit, but he's too tired and mopey to be much fun, so she needles him further. Not so mopey that he doesn't pick up on her words, which she then uses to describe Belle in every kind of plausible pain she can come up with. It's interesting, because he's so turned upside-down still by the unusual event of connecting with another person that he doesn't pick up her tell-tales of acting and pushing the images in, the excessive gloating, the shaping every word like it's a delicate craft. He says she's lying about Belle's death, but there's no conviction in his tone. He wants to believe she's lying, but he doesn't know. This also goes back to his distance from the rest of humanity; if he weren't so twisted up and if he'd observed the King and Belle's interactions just a little more, or maybe only if he weren't so twisted up and were thinking clearly, he'd know how implausible it all is. As opposed to their parallel confrontation, when he's rested enough to dodge and get a few digs of his own in.

I also find his expression interesting, the part where she needs a home. There's hope there, yes, but there's also fear and nervousness. He doesn't know what bringing her back into his life would do. He doesn't know if he can take that chance again. But then there's the teacup, and regret and longing for what might have been. It hurts, because apparently he still is capable of the full range of emotions, and it hurts both to be rejected again and to have a connection lost. Even if it was only the beginning.

Mr. Gold! Oh, Mr. Gold. We begin with Mr. Gold being his usual bastard self. I really liked this vision of him out in the sunlight, even if it shows he has startlingly more gray streaks than it looks in his usual lighting. And the sunglasses rankled me up one side and down the other, because they're fucking Lennon glasses and between that and the hair and his clothes he really looks like he fits in with... well. Another person I know who's way too much like him. A real person, by the way. Blah blah Gold is a cold bastard, blah blah Regina, blah blah dammit, Gold, stop overusing that and being so smug, you're going to piss her off and she's going to smash something. Smirky little shit.

And then someone breaks into his house. He has, by the way, a house I would love to share with him. Trinkets and everything and I love it and I want to curl up in his chairs and give him all the hugs when he comes home. He is not used to having his sanctuaries disturbed. Not when it's not on his terms. This is the first time in the show that we see someone he hasn't lured, manipulated, or provoked into entering his places, entering and knocking stuff around, and it bothers him. And he's small, maybe a little afraid, this is the first time we see shades of the man he used to be even before the curse, in his body posture and the wide eyes. And then he points the gun at the person behind him and it's Emma, and he sighs in relief. Because she's stupid and harmless, and potentially useful if he can manipulate her right.

And they chat about things missing and so on, and I want to smack the writer who had him actually say "not if I get to him first" at that point because he's clearly still in control and wouldn't say things like that. But he recovers and snarks about bad things happening to bad people, and Emma knows he's going to start some shit. I don't think she imagines the extent to which he will, but she does know. And Carlyle handles both slip and recovery with his usual aplomb, the only reason I find it's not believable is because I don't think he would have said anything in the first place. But there you go.

Blah blah plotlines I'm not interested in, then the glimpse at the sheriff's station. And we see him clenching up with rage and hurt, for the first time, almost the whole episode, we see Gold acting wounded and in pain. Really wounded, not the fake pity me act he's so fond of. We see him hunch over, we see him hold himself small, we see his eyes go wide and a little upturned and his brows lift and that little furrow between his brows. We see his fingers dancing and clenching on his cane, and we see his lips press into that I'm-not-saying-it line. Also, teeth. Lots of teeth. Lots of feral animal teeth. We've seen the teeth before, but this time it's alternating teeth and the wide brown watery woobie eyes. It's also the most brown I've seen Carlyle's eyes in a while, which is interesting. When he's playing sad and sympathetic, his eyes are more clearly brown. A lot of the time, his eyes are so big and dark they look black.

The funny thing is, it's this that convinces me that over time and with Belle's absence, he fell more in love with her (or at least the idea of her) than he did while she was there. The idea of her, that someone had loved him, and he'd screwed it up and lost her. Because he's a monster. Or a screw-up, or both. He alternates between being the monster and being the screw-up because he believes in his own hype, believes that's what he is. As Gold, you can see him playing the monster. A lot, and hard. The screw-up shows up more rarely, and mostly in this episode, post-curse. The other key place is in Desperate Souls, when he was dripping Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder all over the place. I'm the town coward. The only choice I have is which corner to hide in. And he's given up the idea that he could be more even before the curse hit. Post-curse, he has two options. He's the Dark One, a monster, the terror that stalks through the night, or he's the screw-up still lurking underneath the curse, because he still remembers who and what he is. Parts of it, anyway, more significantly than others.

Anyway. So, he buys the accouterments of kidnapping, comments to David about love and delicate flames and by the end of the episode we know he believes that two out of the three people who ever loved him, ever could love him or who he could ever love, are dead. And one is fled, missing, presumed dead because Bae's mortal lifespan ran out a long time ago. It's his form of kindness. I suppose. I still think he whammied David/Charming back in The Shepherd.

And the kidnapping. Oh god, the kidnapping. He is furious. He's not yet out of control but he's dancing on the raggedy edge of it. He's furious at least as much with himself as he is with French/King, because this brings up all the old hurts and he should have dealt with this differently, or long ago, or both. Because he's the monster, and she was beautiful. Keeping in mind, he knew her for a couple of months, twenty eight and many more years ago. The luster of the first moment of affection never had a chance to wear off for him. He says walk! in a tone and accent I don't think I've ever heard from Carlyle, and that is the most beastly I've heard him. And at first it's about the cup, and he wants to know who told Moe to take it. (Also, seriously? Moe? A stooge?) and then it's about more than the cup when the man says "It's not my fault." and that hurts him, that pushes his button deep inside because that's what he says, too. Only he knows he's wrong. It is his fault. He threw Belle out, pushed her away, to her death, or so he thinks. And he takes it out on her father, who he (rightly, if his assumptions were at all true) also blames. "You were her father," he says, and it's not just about his love for Belle, it's also about the duties of a father to protect and love his child, which he also failed at. We've seen over and over again his focus on children, the way he lights up whenever Henry's around (just contrast his behavior in Price of Gold from one moment to when Henry walks in) and the way he tells Regina never to underestimate someone who's acting for their child, and how hissy he gets when she gloats over the legality of Henry's place. Children and parental love is very important to him.

And that sting piles on top of the other, and Moe becomes a target for every major screw-up in Gold/Rumplestiltskin's life. If Emma hadn't stopped him I have no doubt that he would have beaten the man into the floorboards.

She does stop him. Takes him to prison. Gold simmers in his own juices, sitting on the edge of the bed like he expects to get up and walk out any moment now, but he doesn't. He accepts this consequence, he doesn't call in his favor because, among other things, she'll balk at it and be even less inclined to be a useful and pliant tool. And he takes the time to breathe and think. And brood and angst, because he does that a lot too. And after a bit of banter we see again, Regina comes in with Henry and suddenly he's all big woobie eyes and "Buy me a cone?" where he wouldn't take half a sandwich from Emma two minutes before.

The confrontation with Regina I want to go back over when I'm not at work. But. He invokes his 'please' again, just to dig his heel into her soft bits from prison. She doesn't like it, and now she knows what he's up to and suspects he knows, which is of course what this all has been about. But he can't resist. We've seen this, he can't resist the smirking little "i know a secret" caper, even with her. She sits, and he gets all formal and Gold-y and asks if she has what he wants. And she does. She loves the gloating, loves when she gets one over on him. I don't know if it's because of how powerful he is or because there's something more personal there, it feels like it could be either. She leans forward and smirks a lot, and the strange thing is in this confrontation, Gold feels skittery. Afraid. His eyes dart and stay that wide kind of sad/afraid. His mouth twitches in sad smiles or tired lines. The absence of the feral shark-tooth grin is prominent, too, it doesn't show up until the "Such hostility." "Oh yeah."

But what Regina wants is confirmation. He teases her with it, toys with her, with exact wording dances. "Every moment I've been on this earth that's been my name." And, rare for her, she picks that out. "But what about time spent other places?" Yes, you're very clever Regina, he's going to eat your heart in the marketplace for your offenses against him. And when she finally pries it out from between his pointy, snaggled teeth he rolls it in his mouth when he says it, like it tastes good to have it out again. But at the same time like he's so, so tired of being... something. I can't tell which, Mr. Gold, or the boogeyman. Then she gives him the cup and, like a few other people, I was really worried she'd smash it on the ground at his feet just to reinforce her power over him. She doesn't, though. She gives it back and he huddles over it, holding it tight but also caressing it. His fingers are strong and precise (which goes with spinning, but that's harder to explain from experience). And they threaten each other a bit, and she goes away feeling like she has the upper hand.

In conclusion! Ladies and jellyspoons. No, I do not believe Belle and Rumple were in true love. Do I believe they could have been if Evil Bitchbeast from Hell hadn't interfered? Quite possibly. But Belle was impatient and foolish, and Rumple's issues have subscriptions to all the backissues between his own ideas of himself as unlovable and his (proper) paranoia about the Queen, not to mention his issues on being a father, and it did not end well. Gold is more in love with her, or rather the idea of her, than Rumple was. He's had time to mellow and calm and think about what she said and did, and think that maybe she was telling the truth. And that maybe she could have loved the monster as well as the man he had been. And to regret not taking the time to find out.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when she does get out; as a friend of mine said, that's too big a gun to leave unshot. If they'll be able to make a go of it or if she'll be too driven insane or if it won't be what he's built it up to be, because he's had a long time to build up the fantasy of their deathless love. Personally, I would love to see them both come away from their trials scarred but wiser, and find a more stable and solid ground to stand on and be together. I think she has/had the potential to be an amazing partner for him, and he for her. But since it's one of my writing kinks to see a couple work for their happy ending, I think they would have a long road ahead of them.


Well. That got long. Um. No one is obligated to read all of that, or agree with it, it's just that I had some thoughts and wanted to get them out. Apparently I had a lot of thoughts. I am a thinky person! And I probably overthink what I, at least, find to be a badly written show. But there. My thoughts, you can has.

Be assured, there will be a PILE of fanfic coming out of this and other episodes. Still haven't figured out what I'm doing with Ruby/Gold, although this puts a lot of weight behind my idea that he's actually startled that Ruby would attach to him like that. But something from Rumple's deep past will be coming, another chapter of J3, more Plunkett & Macleane, and so on.

Around all the other crap I have to do, there's a WBB thing that needs resolved, I have a pile of work to do for my day job, and house stuff is still lurking behind me waiting to pounce. I have a pile of original writing I also need to get cracking on because last week was not a good week for concentration of any sort, and, well. Things. Stuff. One thing at a time, though. Set 'em up, knock 'em down. Next up, day job work, packing, and a conversation between a profiler/assassin and a hitter/assassin. Because that'll go well.

Comments

[kikibug13]

будто -> as if, as though

а то и -> and even

So, generally, GOOD!

Also, I will. Process OUaT at home >.>

[kittydesade]

*makes notes!*

I had, um. Many thoughts.

[kikibug13]

JEEZ so much fanfic TOLD YOU LAST NIGHT THE BUNNIES WERE BITING. Also told you that her heart just will get eaten. Skinning just isn't enough. (Although some of what oldandnewfirm expanded on yesterday also has merit.)

Also also also. Belle DOES need serious shaking and a lengthy explanation on how to take care of on people such as him (YUUUP the parallels, but I thought I needn't make you MORE anxious about the episode than you were), it will do much good... but the reason I look on her more kindly is that she didn't TOTALLY fuck it up. And she could have. She really, really could have fucked the whole thing up MUCH worse than she did. She really SHOULD have stayed (assuming presuming to be able to despite his command was conceivable for her), but the leaving wasn't quite the desertion that... would have made return improbable.

I do agree that they weren't quite in love. Belle didn't really think of it that way until Regina prodded; Rumpel was even further than the idea than her. (Also, I'm not sure if his magic couldn't extend her life? Considering that the curse has basically done this for, oh, the entire Storybrooke?) But it wasn't impossible and it... still isn't. I don't know. She tried to force him into something, and she got a bad smack for it, it didn't go without consequences; possibly she would know better yet.

Unless she comes out broken into a Sorceress, of course, in which case ow bloody ow. OW. Ow ow ow. (And while not quite brilliant, she is bright enough to be able to break that way, unless I'm off? Of course, it also depends on what exactly happened...)

Ahem.

he doesn't pick up her tell-tales of acting and pushing the images in, the excessive gloating, the shaping every word like it's a delicate craft.
... that is provided that is not how she usually talks to him...

[kittydesade]

She could have. She didn't... something. In the end she didn't have enough weight behind her to either do much help or much damage, which is kind of sad. But, it's true. No, I think she could have defied him and stayed, I don't think it was an issue of his command so much as she didn't think she had any more use there? Not quite what I mean, but close. Something about taking his words as more of a door-slam than they were.

It could have been, it really could have. But they didn't get there... well, as you say, Regina prodded, then Belle went there and he kind of hesitatingly followed a bit, and she pounced on the breaking of the curse rather than the benefits of sharing love, and. Well. And, yeah. I don't know what'll happen now, I don't know where they'll take them. (It's possible! I still kind of wonder about magic and Bae, but I don't think it would occur to Rumplestiltskin for some reason. Not sure why.)

That'll be... um. Entertaining. In a black comedy way.

It isn't how she talked to him when he was in prison the first time, she was a lot more deferential. Back in The Thing You Love Most. And not when they first talked as Regina and Gold, but she wasn't sure he knew then.

[kikibug13]

*wry* At the end, she was more child than Bride. Then again, the place she comes from was referred to as a village. Even aside from Rumpel's ... well, differences, she possibly had no frame of reference on which to base more adept - and useful - thoughts and words and actions. Which is... making excuses for her, but, really, not everybody at whatever her age is can do as well as you :P so... something. She isn't a mature person. She lacks the weight/depth to press the way she needs to. Or she did, at that point.

That's what happens when one rushes her way through important decisions. *coughs* Which was I think a bigger mistake for her than listening to the queen. (Heh. Possible. We will... have to see. But on the other hand, we have evidence strongly suggesting Bael lived with Rumpel after he moved to the big house. Because I don't think there would be that many clothes in their original home. Also, the avoidance to say what happened... I think it's more than just Rumpel' reluctance to speak.)

VERY black comedy. Because it will hurt. Because-- ahem.

Mm. *nods* I think it may also depend on whether she thinks he has something she needs...

[kittydesade]

.... I need to go back to that now, now that you mention it, that's bugging me. Someone referred to her hometown as a village, and Rumplestiltskin would definitely have skewed standards, but her dad was a King and there were at least five or six buildings on that strategy map. Which is considerably more than a village if they're at all staffed with the proper number of outbuildings and so on and so forth. Then again, writers. *wry* More thought than.

*snort* Fair point. (Hrrm. That's... possible, although my thinking was just that Bae stuck around for a year to three years post Dark-Curse-ing and then either died or ran away, which could still result in Rumple keeping his things out of sentiment. And more things, because, hey, Dark powers now! Phenomenal cosmic powers, iiiiiiiitty bitty living space common sense.)

Fucking goddamn Sorcerers. Generally, this is going to suck. Only more general than it did before, what with the next few eps not being Rumplicious.

[kikibug13]

It IRKED ME. And it also irked me that nobody argued it. Including Belle when Rumpel called it that, she didn't even twitch. Ahem. It did fit with her 'seeing the world' thing, though? But yeah, something isn't really matching. (Then again, it's OUaT, why do I even expect it to...)

(That would fit with her finding SMALL clothes. Yes. Sigh. I want MORE DATA. And if Bael was still alive centuries later, in time for the curse? How? Also, could Regina be not sibling but, um. Descendant? >.>)

Sob sob. Yeah, that thought really just makes the episode suck. Not that it doesn't suck for Ruby already.

[oldandnewfirm]

Descendant could work! Oh, oh, I feel a new theory coming on!

So, unable to bear his father's descent into darkness, Bae flees. Rumple is never able to reconcile with him, and after Bae's death Rumple is so grieved that he resolves to help Bae's descendents and ensure that they'll be happy/profitable/etc. Fast forward a few generations to Cora, the miller's daughter and Regina's. When the whole debacle with the king happens, Rumple offers to teach Cora how to spin straw into gold. Somehow Cora STILL manages to screw that up, but Rumple already helped her once and won't do so again. Probably because she's so nasty. So then, um. Something happens. That's as far as I got.

[kikibug13]

Pooooossible! With only correction (because I am not giving up on the pet theory) - Bael's presumed death...

[oldandnewfirm]

It could work if Bae lives, too. I imagine that if Bae were immortal he'd have to leave his family/village at some point (to avoid raising suspicion). When he does, Rumple steps in. Or maybe Rumple accidentally shoots him off into our world, and to make up for that Rumple starts taking care of Bae's family.

[kikibug13]

You know, if Rumpel shot Bael into our world, that would go a LONG way to explaining why he set up the curse as he did. Giving the boy a chance to gome home...

[oldandnewfirm]

Oh dear. Well, let's see if I can school my thoughts from the last few days into something coherent.

I think that, if we're going purely on the laws of the show-- specifically the law that True Love Conquers All-- then Belle and Rumple were in love. The problem is, as you said, neither of them was able to process it in a meaningful, productive way.

Belle's intentions in kissing him were pure: she thought freedom from the curse would make him happy again. And, hey, she was probably right. But the way she went about it-- returning only because she thought she had a chance to "save" him, then attempting to break the curse without even asking him if that's what he wanted-- speaks to a naivete that I don't find surprising in a young woman who's never had the chance to figure out how relationships work, or to even figure out what she wants in a man. Moreover, I think her actions tie into her whole idea of being brave. The only thing keeping her from loving Rumple completely was the evil inside of him; when she realized that she couldn't defeat it, she decided to leave. But then the Queen armed her with a weapon against that evil, and Belle took it in hand and returned to battle. Yes, it's worrisome that she couldn't love him for what he was, but I'm actually going to cut her some slack on that one. She thought that she was acting on his unspoken desire to be free of the curse, misguided though she was.

And Rumple-- well, Rumple's issues are pretty obvious. The self-loathing, the paranoia, his violent reaction to her perceived betrayal when if he'd stayed calm for a few minutes longer he'd have quickly sussed out that the Queen was trying to yank his chain through Belle, and explained to Belle why it was necessary for him to keep his power. But no. He went for Plan B, BREAK ALL THE THINGS! And then he threw Belle around for good measure. That's actually why I don't blame her for leaving in the end-- if some guy blew up at me like that, I would've said "fuck you too!" and rolled out, true love or no. Also, I can't help but wonder if she ever graduated to an actual bedroom in his castle, or if she spent the whole time in the dungeon. I imagine that'll probably be one of the deleted scenes from this ep. that are supposed to be on the DVD.

I hope-- I really, really hope-- that when they do reunite, it isn't an instant "OMG I MISSED YOU SO MUCH LET'S BE IN LOVE FOREVER AND EVER!!!111" kind of deal. Because theirs wasn't that kind of relationship to begin with, and between the issues they had before Belle's "death" and the no doubt serious psychological issues she's developed after thirty or so years spent in various flavors of dungeon, Rumple and Belle have a metric shitload of things they need to resolve before a relationship could ever be feasible. I'd actually love for them to start over again at square one-- "Hi, I'm Rumple," "Hi, I'm Belle."-- and to move forward slowly and, one hopes, healthily towards the kind of love they both need.

It's gonna suck hard for Gold/Rumple, though, because he's been in love with her all this time. And I agree that he's fallen more in love with the idea of her at this point than with Belle herself. Which hearkens back to why they'd need to start over again if they want to have hope of a real relationship, because Gold is going to need to scrub off his rose-tinted view of her in order to love her for who she is now, and not who she was thirty or so years ago. Gold's love for Belle actually gives me serious Dr. Horrible vibes. He's got that same idealistic obsession with her that Dr. Horrible had with Penny.

Ah, Regina. I summed up my opinion of her shortly after the episode.

After a re-watch, I decided that Regina v. Gold has sibling rivalry overtones to it that are...intriguing. I don't think they're related, but there's a familiarity and a sort of tolerance there that makes me wonder if they weren't, as the Queen suggested, much closer once upon a time. And now that I've typed that, I wonder if Rumple isn't the one who taught the Queen magic in the first place.

[kittydesade]

All of the thoughts ever. I swear, when I started this, I didn't mean for it to get this long.

It's true, and I'm -- obviously -- prejudiced more in favor of Gold getting the help/partner he needs than cutting Belle slack, here. I wonder, a little, at her idea of being brave, if it's tied into fighting and defeating the evil inside of him rather than bearing up with it while she learns and supports him as far as her own set of morals will let her. I mean, naivete, but... well, no, that also a bit plays into the idea of how the world is in fairy-tale land, where everything is very surface. Which also aggravates me on several levels, all of them to do with nuance and behavior and half of them to do with complex writing.

But, ahem. Yes. You're more charitable to Belle than I am. Also probably not wrong. I may calm down from wanting to shake her and lecture her on proper care and handling of people like Rumple in a few days.

I think she probably did graduate to a real bedroom, he definitely did that dungeon shit for shock value to begin with. And there's obviously more rooms in the castle, and she spent some time exploring. I don't blame her for leaving specifically so much as I blame her for not pointing out that she sees what he did there and he's still a jackass. Which, she went halfway! I don'tknow, I think I just wanted her to rub his nose in it a little more.

Yeah, I really, really hope that too. I don't have much faith since the writers seem to be bent on the whole OMG TRUE LOVE IS INSTANT AND PERMANENT AND WINS OVER ALL but I would love to see them do something like that, put in the work, grow and develop their relationship together. I think if they did that they would probably be one of the strongest couples in Storybrooke.

It really will. I hadn't thought of Dr. Horrible, but, yeah, it's something very similar. Both women represent something for the villain that is desireable and out of reach. I wonder if Gold would even be willing to face the reality of her, or if he'd do the even creepier thing of flipping out every time she defied his expectations.

I can only agree on Regina. And... that is an interesting theory and I would like to see more of it.

[oldandnewfirm]

Oh, don't worry, I'm a bit biased too. I've always been a sucker for fairy tale romances, cliched and schmaltzy though they are, so to a certain extent I'm letting Belle slide. Like you said, fairy tale world tends to be very shallow. Even the (arguably) healthiest couple on the show, Snow and James, only deal with external obstacles in their quest to be together. Never do either of them question or argue their love for the other. The writers made an effort to touch on some deeper issues in this episode, but I don't think they'll get to expand on them much within the framework of the series.

I thought her calling him a coward was a nice jab. You could see him trying so hard not to flinch when she did. Though I must confess that while she was going on about how miserable he'd be without her, all I could think was, "You've really made yourself the star of this fantasy romance you've built up in your head, haven't you?"

I think Gold's primary reaction to seeing Belle again, once the shock of the reunion wears off, will be shame. Had he not pushed Belle away she'd wouldn't have been captured by the Queen and made to endure whatever that woman has put her through for decades. He'd expect Belle to hate him, to condemn him as the monster he's always known he was, and to leave him bereft having lost love not once, not twice, but three times. Which Belle won't, of course, because that's not the kind of ending you have in a show that's about True Love. And her forgiveness will either cement the image of her as a goddess that he's built up in his head, or it will startle him so much that it will shatter his illusions and force him to start seeing her in a different light. I'm hoping for the latter.

People have also been speculating that Regina's his ex-wife, but I find that too horrifying to comprehend. There was that line she said in the jail, though-- "Strong men take what they want." that seemed like a personal attack on Rumple as much as a comment about Mo's actions. I guess it could tie into her being the ex-wife and commenting on his running from battle, but, ew. Knowing Regina's methods of acquiring lovers, she may have been implying that if Rumple really wanted Belle, he'd have taken her by force.

[kittydesade]

I don't know why, I was for a while, but it was also always the long-time loyalty ones, usually the blood brothers or whatever, that fascinated me. But, yeah, Snow and James are utterly unappealing, and it seems like large swaths of the fanbase thinks so. Presumably because there's so very little to admire when the only obstacle to their being together is, heh, a perfectly legitimate marriage. At least in the fairy tale world James is essentially being forced to it, in the real world there's no such empathy for David.

Keeping himself firm and rigid in purpose. Yes. It probably helped that it wasn't the same tone as when people did a long time ago, but it still hurts. And, heh. She really did. She had an idea of how they were in her head, and the Queen only encouraged that.

Mmm, that makes sense. Shame, regret, and oh look! more self-loathing. Because that's what the silly dickheads do. And, yeah, I'd hope for the latter too, because the last thing that show or anyone needs is more of some guy obsessing on a woman he's built into an image in his head.

I don't see that. If for no other reason than the only person whose word we have for the wife leaving him is the soldier's who has no reason to know what happened. If they'd established the soldier as being from his old village, maybe, but even then. And Rumple's grief wasn't, she left me, grief. That was, she's dead and gone grief. For comparison, Plunkett and Macleane! Where Robert Carlyle again plays a widower in a medievalish setting. Not that I'm obsessed.

That's... a really disgusting implication. And I do think it was kind of an attack on Rumple and her perception of his weakness, but. Ew. I hope she wasn't implying that. I can't argue that she definitively wasn't though.

[oldandnewfirm]

Yeah, it's the marriage thing that's really grating. When David was going on about how, "we'll find a way," I kept thinking, "There is a way jackass! It's called a divorce!" I know the curse is driving them avoid any path that could lead to their happiness, but to the viewers it just comes off as tacky.

Hopefully thirty years of living in a hole has been enough time for her to adjust her perceptions of that whole scenario.

Speaking of years, the writer of this ep. said that Rumple became the Dark One in the first Ogre War, and that's he's been the Dark One for centuries since then. Somehow the idea that he's gone unloved for hundreds of years makes the events of this episode even more awful.

Sozo also threw around the "your wife left you, and your son is a bastard" line, but given the circumstances I wouldn't put too much credence on his word. Then again, based on what we've seen Rumple do throughout the series, I'm getting the sense that Dark Ones can't outright lie. Bend the truth into nearly unrecognizable shapes, yes, but that's as far as they can go before they must tell the truth. So now I'm really curious as to how that situation panned out. And I'm even more curious about Bae, since if it's been centuries since Rumple became the Dark One I question how he could still be alive in either world without some kind of time difference between our world and theirs being at play.

I wouldn't put anything past the Queen at this point. There are still folks arguing for her redemption, but I doubt she'll get it. She's had a multitude of chances and ultimately chooses evil every time. Even with Henry I think that in the end she'll reach a point of, "I hate you all more than I love him."

[kittydesade]

It really, really is. Especially since they gave him the fucking opportunity to be honest at first. He was all "I'm going to tell her, it's over, I'm going to end it" and then Gold whammied him and, no. And now I want to hit him with a bag of hammers.

Hopefully. Heh. If it hasn't driven her insane.

... Oof. That ... well, first of all, that seems like longer than the previous Dark One held out. Second, ouch. It fits with Rumple's detached-from-humanity timelessness, but ouch.

Mmm, wife left him could mean, left him in death, allegorical rather than literal. And what he said was "what a poor choice that would be, selling your soul to save your bastard son," not, literally, "your son is a bastard." Which, as you say, given the knots they tie their words into, might actually mean he's just fucking with Rumple's head. Bae... I've always thought that if Bae really is the Stranger, he has to have been magic influenced somehow. Because he came from outside Storybrooke, if nothing else. So, what if Rumple magicked him and inadvertently made him immortal? And then Bae resented him and ran off. Though of all things, the young boy clothes kind of put the kibosh on that.

She's a frothing psycho. I really, really hope we get a better explanation for her actions other than something someone did to her that we haven't seen and/or for the Evulz. Because I'm getting really sick of her two-dimensionality.

[oldandnewfirm]

Yeah, it would depend on when Bae fled. If Rumple only has children's clothing then I doubt Bae stuck around for more than a few years after his dad turned. Rumple could have tracked him down later and done something to make him immortal. Maybe Bae was sick or injured, and that was the only way to save him.

I'm guessing the Stable Boy episode will reveal that Regina had a miserable childhood under her abusive and domineering mother, and that Snow somehow destroyed what Regina thought was going to be her first and only chance at happiness. I still won't feel a lick of sympathy towards her.

And regarding the Rumple's Apprentice theory, the more I think about it the more it makes sense based on what we know about Regina. I'm going to tie it into my "Cora is the Miller's Daughter" theory and say that after losing her firstborn to Rumple, Cora made a point of teaching Regina that magic = power, and that power = happiness. The logical conclusion, if Rumple really is one of the most powerful beings in the land, is that in order for Regina to be happy she needs to be at least as powerful as him. So she makes a deal with him that he'll teach her magic in exchange for...something. Everything's going swimmingly until her arrogance inevitably leads her to the point of, "I don't need you anymore because I'm better than you." Rumple laughs in her face, mops the floor with her, then gives her the boot.

So begins a glorious rivalry as the Queen continuously plots to destroy him and wield the strongest magic of anyone in the land, and Rumple swats her off like a bug. But he must admire her gumption or something, since he doesn't kill her outright. I imagine after centuries of being the Dark One, some back-and-forth with the Queen would seem like a good bit of sport.

[kittydesade]

If Rumple only has children's clothing I would be very sad, because that's just depressing. On the other hand it also occurred to me that, really, would Belle be able to tell what was Rumple's and what was Bae's? Apart from fashion sense and the fact that Robert Carlyle is a tiny wee sparrow-boned man, at a glance she might not discern. Maybe. Maybe not.

Possibly, and yeah. I don't know if the writers ever intended us to feel sympathy for her but they've really, really screwed themselves over on that one. The Rumplegirls are rabid, and now they're just out for blood, and no one else much likes EQ except the Snow/Queen contingent. Who I've only heard about in myth.

I like this theory if only because it involves Rumple laughing in her face and then smashing her self-important delusions to very tiny shards. Except yeah, still with the why doesn't he just kill her already and what the hell is up with the Ogres? I want to know this. Why are Ogres attacking everyone?

[oldandnewfirm]

If Bae's clothes match the time period Desperate Souls took place in, she should be able to spot the difference pretty easily. I don't know if Rumple would keep around a bunch of outfits that no longer interested him (like clothes from centuries ago), but then again he's a bit of a hoarder, so who knows?

I haven't heard of the Snow/Queen (though it doesn't surprise me), but I know there are some rabid fans of SwanQueen. I feel the same way about SwanQueen as I did about Harry/Draco back in my Potter days: those two hate each other so much, even my wildest imaginings cannot see how they could ever be happy together. And in the end, at least Draco and Harry managed to be civil to each other-- Emma and Regina? I doubt that's gonna happen.

I liked Kikibug's theory that the Queen was a distant descendent of Rumple's. Maybe he taught her, and later spared her, out of some kind of loyalty complex he has for Bae's family. I wonder how sentient the Ogres are. They could just be voracious, unstoppable people-eaters. Or, they could be battling with humans over land/resources/what have you. My mental image of them is now based on that guy who was an Ogre in the episode of Grimm two weeks ago.

[kittydesade]

He is a bit of a hoarder. He keeps a lot of crap around, I think, just because it's his, dammit. Worse as Gold, or maybe he just has less space. But between the pawn shop and his home, he's got a lot of trinkets. Shinies. Stuff. He reminds me, now that I think about it, of King Haggard from the Last Unicorn.

I can't see SwanQueen either, mostly because they're both such incredibly shallow people. Emma's not supposed to be but the way she's written, there's so little depth I have a hard time seeing her attach to anyone. Which is why I didn't buy the Emma/Graham either. Definitely not Emma/Gold, he'd get bored halfway through the first date, assuming it took him that long.

That would at least be a reason to spare her life, yeah. Although goddamn, that apple would have fallen far from the tree at that point, if Queenie is descended from Rumple. He runs circles around her when she's not using grenade launchers to swat flies. I'm not sure, either. If they're not sentient, who's directing them? Even if they are sentient, someone else could be directing them. Aheheheh. Game Ogre. That was a terrible pun. Good episode! But a terrible pun.